Gun mounts.

[pfarber]

A discussion popped up over at http://www.steelsodliers.com about gun mounts, and weather they are 'factory' or not.

The thread is here: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cckw/53327 ... ncils.html

I'll repost what I said to see if anyone can come up with more info:

"Well, they WERE RARE. I found a TO&E for a Regimental Truck platoon. Of the 17 or so trucks, only 4 M2-HBs were allocated. So I *ROUGH* estimate from an early 1943 TO&E for an Infantry Regiment would be 1 in 4.

Now a Divisional QM Company has many more tucks (like 30-40) but not a similar ratio of M2-HBs

Also, the VAST MAJORITY of CCKW were not attached to Divisions and were in QM companies. Operating from ports to depots. In 'secure' rear areas.

While the designated purpose was AAA, a convoy of any size would have embedded AAA. There are accounts of QM units shooting down enemy AC.

Of the 560,000+ CCKWs produced, I would put MG mounts of any kind at *maybe* 5%, or 28,000 trucks. Now, what was the total WWII production of M2? Since every tank, airplane, etc got an M2 you see that there were needed/used elsewhere.

They are neat to have... but accurate???? "

Someone also posted that the mounts were 'Factory installed'. The TM9-801 1944 only mentions that the cab has provisions for a mount. No mount is specified or specifically called for. My reply regarding 'factory gun mounts' was:

nteresting, what is your source for this number?

I find this odd, as not even jeeps came off the production line with MG mounts.

Also, since the factory has NO idea where a truck would end up, nor did ORD and later QM plan production that way. I don't think a Divisional QM Truck platoon is gonna simply wait on its 4 MG mounted trucks... but rather take 4 at random from its pool and mount the MGs as the mounts were available.

Also, as stated, the vast majority of trucks were not shipped whole to the UK for the invasion.. but knocked down in shipping crates. There was simply no room for a mount in those crates (Portrayal Press sells the pub that covers assembly of a CCKW from shipping crates).


Your 'every fourth truck' may be a misread on an Transport platoons 4 assigned M2HBs with its 16 2.5 ton trucks per platoon (3 platoons total). TOE 10-17 19 Feb 1944

[pfarber]

It was brought up that the closed cabs DID have specific, numbered varients for the 'gun mounted' trucks.

Nay, they had had separate cab designations for cabs with holes in the roofs.

ORD8 lists nothing for gun mounts or rings (save for factory installed, standardized parts).

ORD 9 is mute on the subject.

TM10-1501, 1269 and the Nov 42 and Jan 43 1563s also don't mention trucks with gun mounts. In the 1269 and 1501 they list every vehicle by body type, nothing about gun mounts or specifics on which trucks get the roof holes, and which do not. Why? Because they were not made with them.

You take a standard, run of the mill 1574 or 1608 style truck out of the yard, cut a hole in it, bolt on the parts, and change the body tag. Now you have a 1575 or 1609 style truck.

The only reference I found to CAB SPECIFIC MODEL NUMBERS was TM10-1500 (1941) on page 95 Section 18 BODY:

"Cab used on CCKW-353 & 352 is GMC Model 1574"

It appears *none* of these 23,000 contract trucks were fitted with a 1575 cab. TM10-1563's never mention the cab style, nor do the talk about any MG mounts or roof holes.

Only when the TM9 comes out does it mention that provisions for a gun mount... but nothing more specific that that.

If by Divisional TO&E 1 in 5 (approx 20%) of Infantry QM trucks are to have AAA defense capability (MG MOUNTS) you think they would put it in the manuals. The trolley will need servicing, and the bolts will need tightening.... buy every TM is mute.

Why? They were not production (or ordered) as such. They were modified post assembly and given a new cab model number. No CCKW rolled off the assembly line with an MG mount.

[pfarber]

The CCKW articles by Sunderlin also mentions different cab typea. I think its the 6th article covering the '4th Series' trucks (the start of the open cabs, end of the closed cabs).

He makes note that the trucks destined for 'special use' (aka shop vans, compressor, tankers) were ORDERED that way so they could have the proper frame holes drilled.. he also noted that the SNL includes several pages on frames. Also stated was that they were ordered so that they would have the proper registration numbers etc.

The SNL does show several frames... 13 prior to SN 41189, 22 frames between SN 41190 - 321077, and 17 after SN 321078.

Yet the ONLY Cab types listed are 1574, 1608, 1615, 1619 and 1620. The MG hatch cabs are 1575 and 1609.. not mentioned at all in the SNL.