Fire Extinguishers

[retro-roco]

Parts being "stocked for issue" is NOT the same thing as original from the factory. Think of the Ord supply system as something akin to NAPA. They are going to stock a certain number of parts ( as determined by Ord 7 & 8..) of those parts they are authorized to stock. That list of parts was typically the result of experience through testing of those assemblies most likely to fail due to use, extended harsh condition use, or even abuse. They (like NAPA) did not stock EVERY conceivable part, even if original to the truck. Supply in Europe revealed short comings in a system that had worked effectively stateside. Namely that it was difficult, if not impossible to order any part NOT authorized, and in many cases it became similarly difficult to order even authorized parts. This experience is what led to salvage operations, even down to the rear axle seal nuts that you found reclamation information for. I stand by the idea that Chevrolet would not have assigned Chevy (CV-??????) numbers, or even G85 numbers to parts that they did not originally supply on trucks as delivered. Do I know so for a fact?? No.

[pfarber]

Every part in the supply system would have to have a number. Look at jeeps... they had, for a time both Ford and Willys parts numbers. But that lead to parts hell... so they did standardize on on 'Official Stock numbers' (Column 2 of the SNL), but if you orderd by WO-A or GPW- numbers some poor schlub would have to cross reference them.

And even the jeep SNL echos what I believe, on Page 2 of SNL-G503:

"THIS PUBLICATION IS NOT TO BE USED FOR THE RE QUESTIONING OF PARTS. IT IS TO BE USED ONLY FOR INFORMATION AND IDENTIFICATION". The caps appear on in the SNL.

Does every part an a vehicle have a number? YES. Did that part originate from the manufacturer (GM, GMC, FORD)? No.

Even back to TM10-1513 (Willys 1/4 Ton truck Service Manual, May, 1942):

"These part numbers should be used only for the purpose of identifying parts as they are mentioned in the text, and the accuracy of teh part number should be verified by referring to the parts book when placing orders for parts".

Just because it has a part number does not mean its on the truck from the factory.
Just because is has a part number does not mean it can actually be gotten via supply.

I can think of lots of parts that are on a truck that never were installed by the factory.

Gun rings being the first.
Heaters (I even posted a picture of out of the Chevy TM with a heater installed..... whats the PN?)
Pioneer racks.
Spare parts boxes (THIS IS A HUGE ONE!!!!!!) No truck EVER left a factory with a spare parts box. They were installed ONLY IF the truck was destined to go overseas.

[pfarber]

I think I have the proof that might convince you.

TM10-1562 1 May 1943 page 183 "Spare Parts Kit" is listed, in its ENTIRETY. All 12 parts, GM Part Numbers and all.

But the real proof is this:

Army Motors, June, 1943 (this would be one month after the parts manual is released, and given 4-6 month lead times you could argue even as far back a late 42 the decision would have been made):

On the 15th of January the Chief of Ordnance orders that "no motor vehicles are to leave the continental United States either for United States task force use or under Lend-Lease without the Standard 1st-Echelon Spare Parts Vehicle kit."

Army Motors further states:

"They are automatically issued to alerted organizations, according to priority, by the Supply Branch of the Tank-Automotive Center without requisition. And the kits are not available for vehicles operating withing the continental United States".

So, final nail, meet coffin. This is clear proof that there were manufacturer numbered, and also listed in the manufacturers parts manual, but you were not going to *ever* see them factory installed. Simple reason, there is no way for GMC to know which truck stays in the USA, and which trucks are going overseas.

I say that the same is true for extinguishers.

[retro-roco]

Paul,

Perhaps you're missing my point... You've referenced:

a statement from a G503 SNL, (irrelevent to G506). There is a list on pg 6 of mfg abbreviations. Some are GM divisions, but many are not. A part being manufactured by GM had little bearing on whether a truck had the part attached when it left the factory.

Gun rings being the first.
Heaters (I even posted a picture of out of the Chevy TM with a heater installed..... whats the PN?)
Pioneer racks.
Spare parts boxes (THIS IS A HUGE ONE!!!!!!) No truck EVER left a factory with a spare parts box. They were installed ONLY IF the truck was destined to go overseas.

None of the above listed items are listed in either of my SNL G506's. Why? Because they were supplied by the issuing branch.

a TM10-1562 for information about a 'Spare Parts Kit"

I'm not sure of the relevance of a tool kit t a discussion about fire extinguishers. Were tools issued with each truck?? I don't know. Your quote from Army Motors would seem to indicate that there was definite concern that trucks ought not leave the states without the mentioned KIT. State side there was a part supply system in place to order tools, etc. when needed. Sharing a wrench or set of wrenches among several trucks is different than sharing a single fire extinguisher...

My Ord 7 says:

EQUIPMENT ISSUED BY OTHER TECHNICAL SERVICE
The following items of equipment procured, stored, and issued by technical services other the the Ordnance Department are issued initally with the vehicle described herein. Replacements only will be requisitioned on the appropriate techncal service in the usual manner in accordance with current regulations.

The only two items listed are:

APPARATUS, decontaminating, 1 1/2 qt., M2 w/ bracket (Spec. 197-54-113). - 1 per major item.
EXTINGUISHER, fire portable, carbon dioxide, hand, permanent seat type, trigger type valve, cap. 2 lb. - 1 per major item

So there it is!! Your proof that fire extinguishers were not "factory"?? NOT! The fire extinguisher is not the small one were talking about, but was one ONLY issued with the bomb truck (per the SNL G506).

The manual continues with another section titled "COMMON TOOLS". It is unclear if these items are to be considered also issued by other technical services, but the tools listed appear to be specific to the M6 bomb truck for ordnance handling. It includes assorted hand tools. The next section is titled "SPECIAL TOOLS" which includes a bomb handling dolly and track, lifting bars, etc.

The only way we'll know for sure about fire extinguishers (or spare parts kits and tools) is if we find and reference the original contracts which spelled out exactly what Chevrolet had to supply.

In the meantime, Kent and Pyrene ARE BOTH listed in the SNL G506.

Edited to make mention of the fact that I'm not familiar with TM 10-1562. Is is a maintenance manual, parts price list, or a SNL? I'd like to add it to my list of Chevy 4x4 related manuals.

Just discovered, during my search for TM 10-1438 (which I have someplace, as shown here: http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=197070&p=1151451&hilit=toolkit#p1151232 that the TM 10-1562 is NOT for the G506, but is actually an early (July 1942) parts list for the CCKW...

[pfarber]

a statement from a G503 SNL, (irrelevent to G506). There is a list on pg 6 of mfg abbreviations. Some are GM divisions, but many are not. A part being manufactured by GM had little bearing on whether a truck had the part attached when it left the factory.

That kinda is my point. Parts books are not authoritative as to weather or not you can actually GET that part. So just because its in a parts book means little to the GI.

Every parts book/SNL says the same thing: "For IDENTIFICATION purposes only, you may not be able to order the vast majority of items lists" - on something to that effect.

Who knows why they listed the manufacturers of sub assemblies. You never wrote that down on a supply request, on the Type of vehicle, year, Reg. number, miles, and part number you needed. Its there for some reason, but not for ordering parts.

None of the above listed items are listed in either of my SNL G506's. Why? Because they were supplied by the issuing branch.

a TM10-1562 for information about a 'Spare Parts Kit"

I'm not sure of the relevance of a tool kit t a discussion about fire extinguishers. Were tools issued with each truck?? I don't know. Your quote from Army Motors would seem to indicate that there was definite concern that trucks ought not leave the states without the mentioned KIT. State side there was a part supply system in place to order tools, etc. when needed. Sharing a wrench or set of wrenches among several trucks is different than sharing a single fire extinguisher...

The spare parts box is the perfect example. Ford, Willys, GMC, Harley Davidson etc all had spare parts boxes with manufacturer listed part numbers. The GPW spare parts box was GPW-18353***. The Willys a A-7680***. The GMC listed each part individually, but as per Army order they were ONLY for overseas uses. The factory would never know where a vehicle is going, so they would not put a spare parts box in it. That would have been done at the port when shipped. PERFECT EXAMPLE.

Spare parts kit: Listed in the parts book, not applied at the factory.
Extinguisher: Listed in the parts book, not applied at the factory.

There are lots of parts listed in the parts books, with manufacturer part numbers, that were not factory applied.

I don't believe that a fire extinguisher was applied at the factory. The parts books TMs are not conclusive proof. I hate to say it, but a photo of a truck, at the factory, with the extinguisher would be just about the only thing I could accept, and that would need a bit of provenance also.

*** I came across a few posts on G503 that seemed to indicate that the spare parts boxes were installed at the factory. I believe this to be a mis-statement. Spare parts kits were included when the jeep was crated for overseas shipment. Again, reference the post above 15 Jan 43.... NO SPARE PARTS KITS FOR ANY VEHICLE IN THE CONUS. Telling Ford or Willys that a batch of trucks is going overseas and it needs a parts box would not make sense. Having the org doing the shipping prep for overseas add in the parts box does.

[retro-roco]

You are all over the place with your arguments. I thought this thread was specifically about Chevrolet G506 fire extinguishers. Can you point me to the G506 parts book that lists a "Spare Parts Kit"? I don't recall ever having seen one referenced. I have two G506 SNL books that do reference fire extinguishers and brackets. The holes that I've seen for mounting them appear to be factory?? They put in the holes, but didn't install anything with them?

[retro-roco]

*** I came across a few posts on G503 that seemed to indicate that the spare parts boxes were installed at the factory. I believe this to be a mis-statement. Spare parts kits were included when the jeep was crated for overseas shipment. Again, reference the post above 15 Jan 43.... NO SPARE PARTS KITS FOR ANY VEHICLE IN THE CONUS. Telling Ford or Willys that a batch of trucks is going overseas and it needs a parts box would not make sense. Having the org doing the shipping prep for overseas add in the parts box does.

Are you talking about the boxes of spare parts (cardboard boxes, wrapped and waterproofed) for overseas shipments, or the sheetmetal boxes installed on some trucks for storing tools and spare parts?? They are not one in the same. I would venture to guess that the directive you've been quoting was in reference to the boxed spare parts, and not the metal drawer.

[pfarber]

One issue is that there ISN'T any reference to the Chevy Spare parts kit, yet jeeps, cckws etc clearly have them.

This is the kit I referenced via Ford and Willys part numbers, and via the TM10-1562.

There CLEARLY is an Army order that if the tuck is going overseas, it MUST be installed. No, you can't order one, they are shipped to the units automatically when ordered to prepare for overseas.

Read this:

So just about every other truck has one, BUT the Chevy someone got away without installing it? No, I dont think that's the case. I think the Chevy TMs are just not as up to date/through as they should be. Maybe because Chevys were a much smaller part of the 'big picture'? Maybe GM simply didn't *have to* keep up to date because of low production or that the bulk of production went to Lend-Lease (even still, the Spare parts box would still have been a required item).

My thoughts are the same regarding the fire extinguisher. Yes, its in the books, but they may not be factory installed, but installed after acceptance or prior to shipment overseas. Later documents for the CCKW (ORD 7s) state that the the Engineering Dept is responsible for procurement of the fire extinguishers (at least for G508s). If there is an ORD 7 for the G506 checking there would be a good backup.

[retro-roco]

Your TM 10-1562 which you say includes the parts kit, is a revised version, as I have a TM 10-1562, dated July 1, 1942, which makes no mention of the parts kit. So between July 1, 1942 and May, 1943, someone decided to add the Spare Parts Kit. Coincidence?? Not likely, since you indicated the directive for Spare Parts Kits came out in Jan '43

This pic is from TM 10-1438, Parts List, dated Mar 2, 1942.



The fire extinguishers listed are also included in the parts list in the back of the book (pg 170, 171), with a Chevrolet part number, a Chevrolet group number (part of their internal part numbering system, NOT the TM group numbers) and a PRICE. The parts listed are described as "Parts Peculiar to Gov.t Vehicles as of March 2, 1942".

I just found fire extinguishers listed too in the early TM 10-1562, in section 18, on page 150, with part numbers that are also listed in price list in the back of the book.

YT-4336, KIT INSTRUCTIONS for CAB HEATER, for 2-1/2 ton truck 6x6 & 6x4, step 'a.' mentions that IF the fire extinguisher had to be removed from the right front section of the dash, to remove it. Step 'k.' mentions relocating it to the side kick panel (as illustrated), using the bracket as a template, using the original bolts, nuts and washers.

Did any Chevrolet trucks leave the factory with fire extinguishers? Yes. Early trucks did. Did any Chevrolet trucks leave the factory without them? Perhaps later trucks...

This would seem to be supported by the absence of them in a Chevy 4x4 Supplemental parts list dated Nov 1, 1944. Perhaps there needs to be an asterisk next to your declaration that no truck left the factory with a fire extinguisher?

[pfarber]

Very well could be an early truck thing. As I mentioned I don't have the complete G506/G508 encyclopedia yet

All of the early (39-41) trucks were non-standard compared to late 42 and on trucks. It would be interesting to see if the CCKWX/ACKWX/AFKWX manuals listed an extinguisher. I still think that in late 42/early 43 a lot of things were modified by the Army to suit their needs (like the spare parts box being added only if going overseas) because they could do it much faster than any manufacturer could.

I would also add (and this is just thinking out loud) that brass was declared a strategic material in 42. Those extinguishers were all brass. That's a lot of brass to put in every vehicle, just because. Wartime policy of 'No new tires state side' and 'the great vehicle rubber purge' and (again) spares parts only on vehicles going overseas tells me that, that despite the documentation, it would go against the general supply cutbacks in progress to allow every truck, regardless of destination, to have that brass extinguisher in it.

One thing I do not see is any KENT information. Can't swing a dead cat without seeing PYRENE, but KENT is another thing completely. I have one found 2 online and neither can be dated.

[pfarber]

Another C21 that looked good at first glance:

But looking at the patent numbers:

That damned second patent number puts it post war